5 new galaxy rasbora died less than 24 hours

[robbo81]

Your tank looks very appealing, especially the way you've photographed it (sorry - I've only just stopped to look at it rather than scooting past!).

Apologies in advance for the following little flurry of questions ...

Can you summarise in slightly more detail the cycling process and its chronology? In particular, at what ammonia concentration did you cycle ; and did you track pH during it?

Once cycled, how long was the interval before adding fish? And what did you do ammonia-wise during that interval?

Re your KH tests : can you tell us the first part of your postcode, please? And can you recheck the pH result?

Have you a current, or near-current, nitrite test result?

As some readers may discern from the above questions, my gut is trying to push me towards an oxygenation issue as an explanation, or at least as a significant contributor, possibly related to a build-up of carbon dioxide (if you've the stomach for it, look up 'Root Effect'). Am I right in thinking that there isn't an airline into the tank (via an air pump) and/or that the surface of the water isn't being agitated?

Hi there. Great response. Thank you.
I will write out a full explanation as soon as I get home. ( been dragged out by the mrs hahaha )
I will detail all the above you have asked.
Hopefully then we can get to the bottom of what went wrong.
My post code is wa1
Warrington Cheshire

Regards

[robbo81]

Your tank looks very appealing, especially the way you've photographed it (sorry - I've only just stopped to look at it rather than scooting past!).

Apologies in advance for the following little flurry of questions ...

Can you summarise in slightly more detail the cycling process and its chronology? In particular, at what ammonia concentration did you cycle ; and did you track pH during it?

Once cycled, how long was the interval before adding fish? And what did you do ammonia-wise during that interval?

Re your KH tests : can you tell us the first part of your postcode, please? And can you recheck the pH result?

Have you a current, or near-current, nitrite test result?

As some readers may discern from the above questions, my gut is trying to push me towards an oxygenation issue as an explanation, or at least as a significant contributor, possibly related to a build-up of carbon dioxide (if you've the stomach for it, look up 'Root Effect'). Am I right in thinking that there isn't an airline into the tank (via an air pump) and/or that the surface of the water isn't being agitated?

Ok so
With regard cycling the tank. I’d say maybe 2 month before I even set up the fluval I had a mesh bag full of biohome micro balls . I bought two bags and placed them in the filter of my 200 litre tank in an attempt to then transfer the ‘already cycled media’ into the fluval.
The edge was washed out , gravel added and set up and running. I then added the bio balls from my tetra tec ex 1200 into the hob filter added some fish food and left for 24 hours. I then tested with liquid test kit
All parameters except ( stupidly ) gh and kh. If I’m honest I can’t remember at that point what my nitrate was. But ammonia and nitrite were 0 and ph was around 7.
I then left for around 2 weeks just adding a little bit of food each day and after this time I performed a water change , probably around 30 %.
I did a second test a day or two after that and again parameters were fine and I’ve noted down nitrates at 20ppm so again I did a water change.
Unfortunately still no gh and kh at this point. It’s only at this point I’m realising how important gh and kh are as I’ve only been focused on ammonia and nitrate.
I have had issues in the past with my water having little buffering capacity and that’s why in my main tank I have a bag of crushed coral. But that was because my ph dropped massively and since I’ve been adding crushed coral that now seems fine. I obviously understand now why and the reasons what that crushed coral did. And that’s why I maybe should have put some in the fluval edge.
But back to the details.
I then left it around a week and after a water change began to add a few red cherry shrimp and again kept adding small amounts of food.
I then tested regularly, ammonia and nitrate and nitrate fell again to around 10ppm.
I think it’s around this point the new fish arrived and I added them in the way I always do.
Float the bag and then added my tank water to the bag of the shop water. 40 - 50 mins later released into the tank. 24 hours later all fish have died. Shrimp seemed fine but now they seem to be dropping off to. All shrimp have now been removed until we can figure out what’s going on

With regard oxygen, I do not have an air pump / air stone as the edge has a glass top I would think all the air bubbles will collect under the glass and not bubble off on the surface. Although the water from the filter does cause a lot of surface agitation so thought this would be acceptable.
My nitrite is showing 0 ppm
Hope thy is is enough info.

Thanks
Rob

[robbo81]

I should also add I tested my 200 litre and the kh isn’t much better.
Only two drops to change from blue to yellow. I haven’t lost any fish I’m the 200 litre for a good long while now and that tank has LOADS of shrimp and I’ve never found a dead shrimp ever in that tank.
I have ordered 1kg of crushed coral to add to the filter I’m my 200 litre and I’ll add some to my fluval. I’m advised this is the correct way to raise kh.

[Vale!]

Many thanks for the further info.

I'm going to test your patience with four more questions!

First : if you disturb the surface of the gravel, say with spoon or finger, does a cloud of stuff appear?

Second : Is there an air-gap between water surface and the roof of the Edge (if there's little or no opportunity for the tank to exchange gases with atmosphere, then whether or not there's surface agitation is of little consequence of course!).

Third : since you have successful shrimp in your other tank I presume you're more than familiar with what a shrimp moult looks like? Can you confirm that the dead shrimp that you found were whole shrimp rather than empty shrimp housings (which are typically white)?

And fourthly : can you confirm that you use a dechlorinator (sorry if you've already said and I've missed it).

Very envious of your tapwater, incidentally! It's very close to my tankwater (my tapwater but I allow my tanks' pH's to fall to wherever they want to be and choose fish that suit the conditions (actually it's the other way round). As far as base parameters go your tankwater should be eminently suitable for your Galaxies RIP).

Yes - coral sand is a good way to supplement/buffer GH/KH. Cuttlebone is good, too, and limestone. Wonder Shells don't seem to be sold outside the US/ Canada, but they're very good (as I'm sure you wanted to know!).

[robbo81]

Many thanks for the further info.

I'm going to test your patience with four more questions!

First : if you disturb the surface of the gravel, say with spoon or finger, does a cloud of stuff appear?

Second : Is there an air-gap between water surface and the roof of the Edge (if there's little or no opportunity for the tank to exchange gases with atmosphere, then whether or not there's surface agitation is of little consequence of course!).

Third : since you have successful shrimp in your other tank I presume you're more than familiar with what a shrimp moult looks like? Can you confirm that the dead shrimp that you found were whole shrimp rather than empty shrimp housings (which are typically white)?

And fourthly : can you confirm that you use a dechlorinator (sorry if you've already said and I've missed it).

Very envious of your tapwater, incidentally! It's very close to my tankwater (my tapwater but I allow my tanks' pH's to fall to wherever they want to be and choose fish that suit the conditions (actually it's the other way round). As far as base parameters go your tankwater should be eminently suitable for your Galaxies RIP).

Yes - coral sand is a good way to supplement/buffer GH/KH. Cuttlebone is good, too, and limestone. Wonder Shells don't seem to be sold outside the US/ Canada, but they're very good (as I'm sure you wanted to know!).

Hey there. And thanks again for everyone taking time to help me out

So to answer the questions , yes I use seachem prime
there is no clouding of the water if I disturb the substrate etc
The tanks is filled right to the top, just enough so the water flowing back into the tank ripples the water etc
As for the dead shrimp , yes they are whole shrimp and not moulting. I see this a lot I’m my Roma 200 and used to panic thinking my shrimp were dead until I realised what it was. So the shrimp found in the fluval edge were dead shrimp. I have just found a single baby shrimp in the fluval edge as it happens. I must have missed it when I removed them before.

My tap water kh being very low I thought that was unsuitable. Certainly in the nt labs test it says should the test for kh turn yellow after only one drop then this is extremely dangerous for fish. And my tap water is like this. One maybe two drops so showing vary very low kh. But again i am just getting my head around kh and gh and it’s relation to ph fluctuations etc

[plankton]

The water is soft.....so.....
Celestial Pearl Danios don't like soft water, neither do cherry (or any neocaradina) shrimps. (Galaxy Rasbora is the wrong name for these fish )
If the other tanks are slightly higher in TDS (total dissolved solids) and slightly harder, you may get away with the shrimp.

[robbo81]

The water is soft.....so.....
Celestial Pearl Danios don't like soft water, neither do cherry (or any neocaradina) shrimps. (Galaxy Rasbora is the wrong name for these fish )
If the other tanks are slightly higher in TDS (total dissolved solids) and slightly harder, you may get away with the shrimp.

Pearl danios , that’s the name I was trying to remember .
Can adding crushed coral correct this and give me slightly harder water ??
Thanks

[Vale!]

[Jeremy Clarkson voice]

So here's what I think ...

All things being equal, the tank should have been capable of supporting that small number of CPDs for more than 24 hours. This based on the fact that my CPDs have been thriving in water more soft/acidic than yours for at least a couple of years : GH is limited to 4-5 grams of calcium nitrate plus 3 grams of magnesium sulphate in c200 litres of pure water ; I don't add carbonate (KH) in any form.

Since there had been no fish in the tank before the event, it seems extremely unlikely that there would be fishy-type pathogens lurking in the tank. The fact that you report no problems in your bigger tank suggests it's unlikely that significant pathogens were imported to the Edge along with the bioballs.

It's possible that the fish brought their own pathogens with them (and that the stresses of the physical/chemical conditions during transport made the fish vulnerable) but without knowing the current condition of their former tankmates, that possibility can't be examined.

A further big unknown is the chemical nature of the water that the fish were in before they reached your tank. A significant disparity in ionic strength (GH, if you like) could well have caused them osmoregulatory issues which your acclimatisation ritual may not have mitigated. Osmoregulation, should you not be aware, is about fish maintaining the 'correct' amount of water in their body tissues. As Plankton observed, the term 'pH shock' is often (mis)used when referring to effects which are more, or wholly, due to subjecting fish to a sudden change in ionic strength.

We also don't know whether a significant concentration of ammonia had built up in their bag. However bearing in mind the time they spent in the bag (unsedated) and the probable handling of the package during shipment, we can reasonably speculate that there would have been much more in comparison with bringing the fish home from a Local Fish Shop. My own experience with fish arriving by post or courier strongly supports that speculation!
When a bag of new fish is 'floated' in tankwater that's warmer than the bagwater, any ammonia in the bag becomes more toxic as the temperatures equalise.

Any of the conditions mentioned in the foregoing three paragraphs may well have played a part in what happened, but I think we need to look elsewhere for a more convincing explanation.

My initial hunch was generated, believe it or not, by the behaviour of the shrimps! Effectively your observation can be clumsily expressed this way : you put fish in, and resident shrimps died in short order! I haven't yet perceived a persuasive reason as to why my hunch should be shot down in flames, so I'm going with it and will try to explain what I think may have been the mechanism. I may not succeed!

Shrimps are sensitive to low Dissolved Oxygen (DO).  At 3 mg/l they'd be stressed, maybe some deaths ; at 2 mg/l there'd be significant numbers of casualties ; and at 1mg/l there'd be total wipeout. Given the information then available, I decided to go with my hunch and test it as best I could until it collapsed. So my barrage of questions (sorry!) was me trying to assess oxygen input to the tank and biological/chemical demand for oxygen already in it.

It seems that the tank affords little opportunity for gas exchange with atmosphere (when compared with a more 'conventional' setup).  So even a slight increase in demand must therefore have a disproportionate, negative, effect on DO.

Demand  for oxygen on the biological side came from : the CPDs - whose demand would be temporarily elevated due to stress ; the shrimp themselves - probably relatively insignificant, but then I don't think we know how many shrimp in total were resident! ; biofilm on the tank's surfaces - but that wouldn't be developed in comparison with a stocked-and-mature tank ; micro-organisms suspended in the water-column (including algae) - ditto ; and micro-organisms living in the filter.

Once again I must record my debt to a poster on Another Forum (far, far away!) for the term 'microblighter' to describe the biological agents which oxidise ammonia to nitrite, and then of course to nitrate. The softer and/or more acidic the water, it seems the more likely it is that the chief microblighters involved are not bacteria, but archaea. Although it's probable that your filter hosts a mix of both, I'll default to the popularly-accepted tenet that they're all bacteria. There are many kinds/species of ammonia-oxidising bacteria (AOB), not all of them requiring oxygen to operate but, again, I'll assume and believe that yours are all of the aerobic variety!

For every 1mg of ammonia that they oxidise, they use up c10mg of dissolved oxygen. In a small tank, particularly if it's going through a fishless cycle, this can be really significant ; and even more so if the oxygen, which dissolves only reluctantly in water, isn't being readily replenished. Your (if I may say so) haphazard cycling method doesn't allow us to have an educated guess at what the actual oxygen demand from the filter may be ; but we can at least say that there was some such demand!

I didn't expect that your 'stir-of-the-substrate' test would bring up a cloud of stuff - so far as I could tell from your chronology the filter couldn't have been overloaded, and is operating effectively at the moment (the less efffective, the greater is the proportion of AOBs that live on the substrate and other surfaces). Worth a go, though!

As well as demand for oxygen from biological entities, there's also a chemical demand for it. This relates to my question checking that you use a dechlorinator. So far as I'm aware all aquarium dechlorinators marketed to our hobby (including Seachem Prime - I checked!) are based on sodium thiosulphate. It's an oxygen-scavenger. In normal circumstances this isn't at all a problem ; but in a situation where DO is already in short supply its scavenging effect must be magnified.

From your descriptions I don't think I picked up that you might have performed a water-change immediately before introducing the fish.  Had you done so the resulting sudden depletion of DO might well have nobbled the shrimp (assuming my hunch is a player, of course). Nevertheless, the dechlorinator's effect following a relatively-recent water-change would still have contributed to a depressed DO at the time of fish-introduction IF replenishment from atmosphere wasn't happening efficiently.

That 'if' applies to all the other agents of DO-depression that I've mentioned too : any of them may be insignificant alone, but cumulatively (minus the fish) I think that they took the oxygen situation to a tipping point, as evidenced by the deaths of the shrimp, and the tipping point was exceeded when the fish addded their own oxygen demand. 

It may be that you (or anyone) could point to a exactly-comparable setup that's working fine, in which case my hunch collapses in an untidy heap! But until then ...

... that's what I think. You don't have to take my answer of course  - you still have Ask The Audience and Phone A Friend.

[/Jeremy Clarkson voice]

[robbo81]

[Jeremy Clarkson voice]

So here's what I think ...

All things being equal, the tank should have been capable of supporting that small number of CPDs for more than 24 hours. This based on the fact that my CPDs have been thriving in water more soft/acidic than yours for at least a couple of years : GH is limited to 4-5 grams of calcium nitrate plus 3 grams of magnesium sulphate in c200 litres of pure water ; I don't add carbonate (KH) in any form.

Since there had been no fish in the tank before the event, it seems extremely unlikely that there would be fishy-type pathogens lurking in the tank. The fact that you report no problems in your bigger tank suggests it's unlikely that significant pathogens were imported to the Edge along with the bioballs.

It's possible that the fish brought their own pathogens with them (and that the stresses of the physical/chemical conditions during transport made the fish vulnerable) but without knowing the current condition of their former tankmates, that possibility can't be examined.

A further big unknown is the chemical nature of the water that the fish were in before they reached your tank. A significant disparity in ionic strength (GH, if you like) could well have caused them osmoregulatory issues which your acclimatisation ritual may not have mitigated. Osmoregulation, should you not be aware, is about fish maintaining the 'correct' amount of water in their body tissues. As Plankton observed, the term 'pH shock' is often (mis)used when referring to effects which are more, or wholly, due to subjecting fish to a sudden change in ionic strength.

We also don't know whether a significant concentration of ammonia had built up in their bag. However bearing in mind the time they spent in the bag (unsedated) and the probable handling of the package during shipment, we can reasonably speculate that there would have been much more in comparison with bringing the fish home from a Local Fish Shop. My own experience with fish arriving by post or courier strongly supports that speculation!
When a bag of new fish is 'floated' in tankwater that's warmer than the bagwater, any ammonia in the bag becomes more toxic as the temperatures equalise.

Any of the conditions mentioned in the foregoing three paragraphs may well have played a part in what happened, but I think we need to look elsewhere for a more convincing explanation.

My initial hunch was generated, believe it or not, by the behaviour of the shrimps! Effectively your observation can be clumsily expressed this way : you put fish in, and resident shrimps died in short order! I haven't yet perceived a persuasive reason as to why my hunch should be shot down in flames, so I'm going with it and will try to explain what I think may have been the mechanism. I may not succeed!

Shrimps are sensitive to low Dissolved Oxygen (DO).  At 3 mg/l they'd be stressed, maybe some deaths ; at 2 mg/l there'd be significant numbers of casualties ; and at 1mg/l there'd be total wipeout. Given the information then available, I decided to go with my hunch and test it as best I could until it collapsed. So my barrage of questions (sorry!) was me trying to assess oxygen input to the tank and biological/chemical demand for oxygen already in it.

It seems that the tank affords little opportunity for gas exchange with atmosphere (when compared with a more 'conventional' setup).  So even a slight increase in demand must therefore have a disproportionate, negative, effect on DO.

Demand  for oxygen on the biological side came from : the CPDs - whose demand would be temporarily elevated due to stress ; the shrimp themselves - probably relatively insignificant, but then I don't think we know how many shrimp in total were resident! ; biofilm on the tank's surfaces - but that wouldn't be developed in comparison with a stocked-and-mature tank ; micro-organisms suspended in the water-column (including algae) - ditto ; and micro-organisms living in the filter.

Once again I must record my debt to a poster on Another Forum (far, far away!) for the term 'microblighter' to describe the biological agents which oxidise ammonia to nitrite, and then of course to nitrate. The softer and/or more acidic the water, it seems the more likely it is that the chief microblighters involved are not bacteria, but archaea. Although it's probable that your filter hosts a mix of both, I'll default to the popularly-accepted tenet that they're all bacteria. There are many kinds/species of ammonia-oxidising bacteria (AOB), not all of them requiring oxygen to operate but, again, I'll assume and believe that yours are all of the aerobic variety!

For every 1mg of ammonia that they oxidise, they use up c10mg of dissolved oxygen. In a small tank, particularly if it's going through a fishless cycle, this can be really significant ; and even more so if the oxygen, which dissolves only reluctantly in water, isn't being readily replenished. Your (if I may say so) haphazard cycling method doesn't allow us to have an educated guess at what the actual oxygen demand from the filter may be ; but we can at least say that there was some such demand!

I didn't expect that your 'stir-of-the-substrate' test would bring up a cloud of stuff - so far as I could tell from your chronology the filter couldn't have been overloaded, and is operating effectively at the moment (the less efffective, the greater is the proportion of AOBs that live on the substrate and other surfaces). Worth a go, though!

As well as demand for oxygen from biological entities, there's also a chemical demand for it. This relates to my question checking that you use a dechlorinator. So far as I'm aware all aquarium dechlorinators marketed to our hobby (including Seachem Prime - I checked!) are based on sodium thiosulphate. It's an oxygen-scavenger. In normal circumstances this isn't at all a problem ; but in a situation where DO is already in short supply its scavenging effect must be magnified.

From your descriptions I don't think I picked up that you might have performed a water-change immediately before introducing the fish.  Had you done so the resulting sudden depletion of DO might well have nobbled the shrimp (assuming my hunch is a player, of course). Nevertheless, the dechlorinator's effect following a relatively-recent water-change would still have contributed to a depressed DO at the time of fish-introduction IF replenishment from atmosphere wasn't happening efficiently.

That 'if' applies to all the other agents of DO-depression that I've mentioned too : any of them may be insignificant alone, but cumulatively (minus the fish) I think that they took the oxygen situation to a tipping point, as evidenced by the deaths of the shrimp, and the tipping point was exceeded when the fish addded their own oxygen demand. 

It may be that you (or anyone) could point to a exactly-comparable setup that's working fine, in which case my hunch collapses in an untidy heap! But until then ...

... that's what I think. You don't have to take my answer of course  - you still have Ask The Audience and Phone A Friend.

[/Jeremy Clarkson voice]

Great reply. Thanks for taking such time to write your explanation. Brilliant.
The good news is the company have agreed to send out 5 new cod’s and will arrive here Wednesday. It looks like they will be going in my main tank as I’m far too nervous to put anything in the fluval edge now. Not that they can stay in that tank as it’s pretty stocked up anyway. I keep up with water changes and it’s got plenty of filtration so that’s not an issue as far as that is concerned.
I’ve seen online plenty of examples of people keeping cod’s in the fluval edge , but that doesn’t tell me what their water chemistry is.

[robbo81]

Our friend joey on you tube ( king of diy ) says add ammonia detoxifier to the bag once opened which one of you also said regarding joeys videos.
This time round I must take a small sample of the bags water and test .
Both the rosy tetra and cpd’s were added to the tanks in the same manner so my technique must be ok in that respect or the rosy tetra wouldn’t have also died.
Although I usually open the bag And add my tank water slowly over time before adding. Not as joey advises. But then I usually buy my fish from a guy 5 mins drive from me. Not shipped overnight